In this episode of The Mobile GameDev Playbook, we’re discussing how to utilize player insight to help build better games. We look into the tips, tools, and techniques game developers can use to understand what their players want so that they’ll keep coming back for more.
Market-research platform PickFu joins this episode to discuss how game developers have collected user feedback using their service, along with mobile game studio Mojiworks, which uses data-led design in their game development process.
Dive deep into the topic with host Jon Jordan, GameRefinery’s Chief Game Analyst Erno Kiiski and special guests John Li, co-founder of PickFu, and Jen Bolton, VP of Player Insights at Mojiworks.
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Topics we will cover in this episode:
- How to design games with people in mind?
- Learning from the market or outside your own genre
- Why is it important to ask ‘why’?
- One size does not fit all – choose tools that fit your needs
Jon Jordan [Host]: Hello, and welcome to the Mobile GameDev Playbook. Thanks for tuning in for another episode. This podcast provides insights into what makes an excellent mobile game, what is and isn’t working for mobile game designers, and all the latest trends.
I’m your host, Jon Jordan. Today’s topic is player insights. That’s learning from your players to make better games. We’ll talk about some of the tools and techniques available to help developers gain these actionable intelligence data points to build better mobile games. Joining me this week from GameRefinery is Erno Kiiski. How’s it going?
Erno Kiiski [GameRefinery]: It’s going great. How are you, Jon?
Jon: Yes, not too bad. We also have two experts in the area of player insights, each with their particular angle that we’re going to delve into the subject with.
First up, we have John Li, who’s the co-founder at PickFu. How’s it going, John?
John Li [Guest]: It’s going well, Jon, thanks.
Jon: Good, there are too many Johns. That can be confusing.
Jon: Can you talk a bit of PickFu and what you do and a bit of your history as well, maybe?
John: Oh, sure thing. PickFu is a do it yourself, consumer research service. We have a panel of over 10,000 US consumers who play mobile games or shoppers, and so on. PickFu allows you to run quick short polls on these consumer panels. It’s like a digital focus group. My co-founder and I have been running this business for a number of years. We started it because we built it for ourselves as a tool. Well, as a side project, while we were running a different business. As things generally happen, the side business became the actual business. When we found that it was really useful for other people to also get insights into the products that they’re building.
“We have a panel of over 10,000 US consumers who play mobile games”John Li on PickFu’s reach
Jon: Funny how that happens. Isn’t it? It seems to happen; lots of innovation happens because people aren’t thinking about it as the big innovation, and it says, “Oh, it’s something we can kind of mess around with or something we need.” Actually, over time, you realize that they are significant. Great. We’ll get to delve into the insights you’ve gained there. Also joining us is Jen Bolton from Mojiworks. How’s it going, Jen?
Jen Bolton [Guest]: Yes, really well, thanks so much.
Jon: Good. Do you want to tell us a bit about Mojiworks and what you do there?
Jen: Yes. Sure. We are a social games company located in Guilford in the UK. We started in late 2016 to think that chat and messaging apps could be the next big thing for games. We tested that idea on iMessage with a cute little turn-based RPG that you could play with a friend called MojiQuest. That did well, so we built on that with another game, MojiBowling, and a million downloads later; we reckoned we might be onto something with that.
“We tested that idea on iMessage with a cute little turn-based RPG that you could play with a friend called MojiQuest. That did well, so we built on that with another game, MojiBowling, and a million downloads later; we reckoned we might be onto something.”Jen Bolton on the success of Mojiworks
From there, we tried a bunch of instant games concepts for Facebook Messenger. Facebook then changed their strategy for Messenger, but we talked to Snap [Snapchat] about making stuff for their new Snapgames platform by that time. Now we’re partnered with them, and we get to experiment with creating game experiences that are super “Snapchatty,” and we get to loop in great stuff like 3D Bitmojis and stickers.
At this point, our first game has been live for a year and a half and has had more than 65 million players, which is nice. We’ve got another game called Trivia Party, and that’s headed for global launch next month, but my fingers are crossed. We’re excited about that.
Jon: No pressure there.
Jen: No, of course not.
A little bit about me: I’ve been doing community relations work for various types of interactive entertainment since the turn of the century. I’m ancient. I started out doing chat and forum stuff for Channel 4 in the UK, then went to NCSOFT to lead their EU community strategy for all their games. Then I got into startups and an online games consultancy, a company that makes 3D printed toys from digital avatars, and now a social games company.
Startup cultures are in my blood now. I really don’t think I can escape, honestly. I love what I do. I believe that at Mojiworks, we’re helping people connect through exceptional types of play on the platform. I’m super excited about where we’re going.
How to design games with people in mind?
Jon: Good. Thanks for the introductions. Now let’s get down to business. We have this concept, I guess, a term we should use, player insights. I have to admit. I’m not 100% sure what that is. I think we can work it out that we’re going to get some insights from players. I guess that’s the 101 on that. As the experts in the field, maybe go to you first, Jen, from someone running a commercial product around this, what do you mean by player insights? I guess it will be different from game to game, but in terms of the games you’re doing, how do player insights fit into that?
Jen: Yes. You, we are making games for an audience, and being successful with that, you have to know what that audience wants, and you have to deliver to those needs. You need to know what those needs are. You also need a process for collecting them, understanding them, and using them to keep improving what you’re making and enhance your games over time. What you don’t want to do is fall into the trap of making games for yourself, which can be very easy to do, and it can be a real danger to teams and their games.
The good news is there are many approaches that you can take to this, to getting player insights and working with them. There are a lot of tools that can help you, often very cost-effectively. I’m happy to share today a little bit about how we do things at Mojiworks.
“We are making games for an audience, and being successful with that, you have to know what that audience wants, and you have to deliver to those needs. You need to know what those needs are. You also need a process for collecting them, understanding them, and using them to keep improving what you’re making and enhance your games over time.”Jen on the importance of understanding your audience
Our philosophy that we get insights any way we can, and we get them at all stages of development, from concept onwards. It’s that important to us. When you’ve got an idea about what you want to make, you’re taking inspiration from somewhere. You kind of know similar games, what players of similar games want. We take those beliefs and the assumptions, and we start poking at them almost from the very beginning. We do this often.
We try to come out of things with openness and genuine curiosity about what’s going on. Like, “Here’s an idea we have. What do you think of it? What’s your preference? If you prefer A to B, how come that is? ” I don’t think that there’s any such thing as asking ‘why’ too much. Letting players try on your ideas as you construct your game is so valuable. You ask them how it feels for them, and you get accurate information that can help you. When you make a consistent effort to do that over time, understand your players, and learn more about what feels good for them and what they like, your chances of making something they love and stick to go way up.
“I don’t think that there’s any such thing as asking ‘why’ too much. Letting players try on your ideas as you construct your game is so valuable. You ask them how it feels for them, and you get accurate information that can help you. When you make a consistent effort to do that over time, understand your players, and learn more about what feels good for them and what they like, your chances of making something they love and stick to go way up.”Jen on why they use testing
Jon: Okay, good. That’s a good starting point. Excellent. John, let me say your product isn’t specifically, uh, related to games. Do you have any data around the game developers use or how they use it? Because there are many ways PickFu can be used, and it’s a fairly open platform.
John: Yes. We built PickFu to be available for anyone to use. Our customers span verticals as broad as authors, testing book huddles and book covers to people selling on Amazon testing their product listings and their product images in the Amazon search results. Mobile game developers have been one of our most significant and earliest customer segments. We’ve seen– we’ve seen a lot of mobile game testing on the platform.
The first set of developers who organically discovered PickFu saw most of those customers using it later in the game development journey on the UI side. Imagine testing app icons to see which is the better app icon to use in the App Store or testing App Store screenshots to understand how potential players react to them, both the screenshots themselves and even the screenshots’ order.
On PickFu, you can put up anywhere between one to eight options, and either has respondents choose the one they like. The key– the critical insight here is that we also require all respondents to explain why. That’s where the digital focus group aspect comes into it. Often, we see a lot of our customers come in thinking they just want to know which one is better, A or B, and they’ll want to target. They’ll want to target a demographic composition that matches their target audience. We allow targeting by mobile gamers and mobile game genres and all of that stuff.
They’ll come for the quantitative aspect where they want A or B, and they just want to count votes, but what they’re blown away by is the qualitative aspect when they see all the different written responses from all the other players on our panel and similar to what Jen was talking about. It’s digging into those comments that bring out a lot of insight.
On the UI side, game developers test the app icons and the app store screenshots. Still, more and more, we see that game developers are becoming savvier and understanding that the earlier you test and the earlier in the process that you try to collect these gamer insights, the more valuable they’re going to be to make sure that the game that you’re creating is headed in the right direction and is resonating with your target audience.
“Game developers are becoming savvier and understanding that the earlier you test and the earlier in the process that you try to collect these gamer insights, the more valuable they’re going to be to make sure that the game that you’re creating is headed in the right direction and is resonating with your target audience.”John on the importance of testing your game early on in the development process
Jon: Okay, those are two exciting responses. I guess what I’m kind of learning from that is, while the sort of individual questions you could ask via something like PickFu, or I think, in a slightly different way that you’d be doing at Mojiworks, Jen. While those answers are helpful, I guess, the more questions you’re asking to that audience, the more you’re starting to find the sweet spot of what the audience wants in terms of the product you’re offering them, which is, I guess, for many developers, the hardest thing to work out.
Yes, developers are very good at making games, and I guess, as you alluded to, Jen, we’ve had this idea of ‘by gamers for gamers’, which is still a term, which is used. I would say for some very appropriate games, but really, the games industry has moved on along. Many people are more interested in games than necessary people who would call themselves gamers, so it’s part of the process.
Learning from the market or outside your own genre
Jon: Erno, you again, at GameRefinery, you also have some insight into player insight, if that’s not too many insights. What data do you see?
Erno: Yes, so well, of course, first and foremost, GameRefinery is a market research tool, so providing data on the actual product side and the unique thing that we do at GameRefinery is that we go on the game design, we go on the game feature side, and so on. Of course, when you are, let’s say making a new game or new concept you are interested in, let’s say, looking at the market, what are the similar games? How have they built? What kind of features, for example, those games have? Or what kind of live ops they have? What kind of events they have had and stuff like that.
Then that’s the, of course, the beef and butter of the GameRefinery service. Nowadays, on top of that data, we have built these different estimation algorithms also for the, for example, the demographics, and also for the motivations. An excellent example that we have seen in the market is the evolution of the match-three game market. We had the Candy Crushes to superficial level after level type of game. When we saw player XCOM with Gardenscapes, Homescapes, bringing those meta layers and those building aspects into the game.
For example, Project Makeover, the latest big match-three, puzzle hit, they even build on top of that, so they added this kind of like a visual look, makeover like Project Runway-type of stuff, and that is something that also is tied directly into the motivational side of those games. If we look at Candy Crush in our, for example, motivation data, you can directly see that it was more based on the thinking, solving motivation, that was the main driver of those games. Then the match-three market has also evolved outside of that. For example, Project Makeover has many audiences and similar motivations from the customization, decoration, and motivations that we used to see in games like Covet Fashion and games like that.
That’s where we come in, so we’re naturally looking at the games in the market, looking and doing the deconstructions onto the feature level. But then, on top of that, let’s say you’re interested in trying to tap into a specific type of motivation. Then we are there to kind of like, try to help that, “Okay, we want to build our social elements, and we want to fulfill or help our players to enjoy our game socially.” Then we are there to help build the products and show what the market is doing in terms of these types of motivations.
Jon: It’s almost like you’re looking at what the players of your competitors’ games are doing and learning from their insights. It’s a different way of getting the same result.
Erno: Yes. Learning from the market or outside the genre, we often like to say our clients or what our clients often do is that they don’t necessarily just blindly stare at their direct competitors. Usually, innovation comes from somewhere outside of that. For example, Project Makeover took elements from the customization genre and then brought that to the match-three genre, and now they were able to make a nice game with that combination.
“We often like to say our clients or what our clients often do is that they don’t necessarily just blindly stare at their direct competitors. Usually, innovation comes from somewhere outside of that.”Erno on game innovation
Why is it important to ask ‘why’?
Jon: Good. I’m going to change track now and approach it from the opposite direction. I guess this is a famous quote from Steve Jobs. I don’t know; maybe his reputation is not what it is now compared to what it was ten years ago. He always had this idea about why he never did market research and player insight, which I guess is a little different from market research. He suggested a bit different, maybe for a hardware design, but he thought his job and Apple’s job was to figure out what customers wanted when they didn’t know what they wanted. As he kind of said, “If Henry Ford had asked his customers what they want, they’d say they want a faster horse.”
I don’t want to jump in on that one. I mean, it’s an extreme kind of example, and it’s not to say that people shouldn’t be doing kind of player insight at all, but I guess there is– What I would take from that is how you structure your player insights and the type of questions you’re asking. I don’t think anyone would suggest that their players should be designing the product for them. I guess what we’re saying is getting insight from potential players helps shape the development. What point do we think the designer has to have the vision and use player insights to shape that? Would that be a fair way? Jen, what do you think?
Jen: Yes, I think that’s fair. I mean, you’re right, in that your players are never going to tell you what you should make. Because they don’t know and the loud people, they’re often very few of them; the vocal minority is very much a thing, right, so if you let them guide you, that can be a trap. What they will do is they’ll tell you what they think of what you are making.
What we will often do, we test in a bunch of different ways. We can test AB, right on Snapchat, for gameplay and features right in the game. We can try– We use PickFu, so that’s one of our go-to, which we love. It’s the best way for testing a creative, like visual assets and stuff outside of Snapchat. We’ll use that when we want that qualitative feedback on things like tone and style, what people say about what you’re making, the words that they use; we have specific keywords that we care about because we know that they resonate strongly with our Snapchat audience.
We’re a little bit different in that our games live on Snapchat, and so that’s where our efforts are concentrated there. So we’re a bit different from traditional mobile gamers in that way, but we still want to make informed decisions about stuff like visual assets and messaging. We know our audience well enough to have a little bit of a head start on tone and theme. But there are times when we’re looking to change something, change an asset or introduce a new one, and we want to get a sense check on that, so that’s when we go to PickFu.
On PickFu, we’ll run a few different variants against each other, and what John said about the ‘why,’ that’s true for us. We’re not just looking to pick a winner; we’re looking to get why people choose one thing over another and what they say about the assets and how it makes them feel that’s the precious information because understanding why helps to shape our future decisions to not just around that one thing but where we go from there. Right, so I think that’s super important.
No, you shouldn’t let players tell you what to make, although they can give you great ideas that you can then play around with and test and see how that fits into your vision. But they’ll tell you what they like and don’t like and what their impressions are of what you are doing, and that’s super valuable.
“We’re not just looking to pick a winner; we’re looking to get why people choose one thing over another and what they say about the assets and how it makes them feel.”Jen on what they look for when testing
Jon: John with PickFu, the questions you’re asking me, and they just generally visually led or they have to be visually led? Is that how they’re set up?
John: They don’t have to be visually led. You can just ask an open-ended question to a targeted audience segment of your choice. Or you can test text, images, video, audio like we’ve had game developers test, mobile video ads before they put them up on Facebook or somewhere else. We will often see what we will see in the mobile gaming space is testing many visual elements, a lot of visual creatives similar to what Jen was talking about in testing—really testing about the sort of theme and tone style.
For one example, we see a lot of developers testing character designs. Everyone creating a game or any kind of product starts with that vision, right? You don’t just ask the customer what they want; you have a vision of what you think will appeal to your target audience. Once you go, you start on that journey, but you will be coming up with many different variations as you’re going on that creative journey.
For example, in terms of testing, character design, or character art, we’ve seen many companies, developers, come on and they’ll have their artists come up with eight different character designs for one character. You can draw a single character in a lot of different ways. Even with a design brief, you still have many different ways to express the tone, the outfits, and the character’s positioning. Then they’ll come and put it on PickFu and ask about which character do gamers prefer and why.
Often, they’ll dive in not just counting the votes, but they’ll dive into the comments. It’s analyzing those comments and sort of seeing what keywords keep appearing for each option based on what they chose; that’s really where you get the insight of the motivations like what Erno was talking about, about the motivations of the gamers, and what draws them to be attracted or to prefer a particular character design versus another.
“It’s analyzing those comments and sort of seeing what keywords keep appearing for each option based on what they chose; that’s really where you get the insight of the motivations.”John on analyzing qualitative feedback
Jon: I suppose, in essence, the visuals are the way of kind of getting people to think quite intuitively. I guess if you ask a text question, then people believe differently and potentially– whereas in the visuals, they go, “Which ones you like best?” That’s a gut reaction, isn’t it? It’s very easy for people just to go, “That one.” After they’ve chosen it, then they can describe why they chose that. If you just have a text question, then they kind of try to describe before they almost had the gut reaction because there’s nothing to see in it.
I also guess visually, it allows people, as you mentioned, Jen, people should be doing this throughout development. You start with the concepts side, and you go through advertising campaigns for UI.
Jen: Yes. We found that’s really helpful because the more distinct the variants are, the better because if you test items that are quite close together in terms of what they might connote for people, that kind of muddies the waters a lot. We get our best results when the concepts are distinct or when the visuals are quite different from each other; that’s when we get the best results and the best impressions—just a little tip.
John: Absolutely. I would second that as well. We see that as well on our platform. Make sure what you’re testing or the items that you’re testing are distinct and different.
One size does not fit all – choose tools that fit your needs
Jon: Do you think now that this kind of concept of player insights is now something that is pretty well embedded into, indeed, the kind of mobile games sector? It depends on how you implement it into your kind of development live ops kind of processes. Jen, do you still feel like you guys are quite early to be paying as much attention to it, or do you think this is how all decent mobile game studios should be using this sort of stuff now?
Jen: Oh wow. Yes, we’re not typical at all. Our CEO knew that he wanted a team that was data-influenced. Before I was hired, so I was hired when Mojiworks raised Series A in 2017. A few months before I was hired, a data scientist was hired, and he now heads up the data insights function. We’ve got a two-part function within Mojiworks. We’ve got the Data Insights team that works with the game data. They take a look at patterns; they make predictions, stuff like that.
“Our CEO knew that he wanted a team that was data-influenced”Jen on how Mojiworks operates
Then there’s my team, the Player Insights. We talk to players. We get the qualitative stuff. We have that balance internally. It’s like two sides of the brain, to be hackneyed about it. We work together quite closely, and we feed off of each other. That is not typical, but I think that that gives us a real advantage. It’s something that I think a lot of companies would want to do and would benefit from. It’s challenging to make a decision that early to hire those people and spend resources that way. I think it’s been perfect for us. We’re on a really good path.
By this point, like a few years down the road and having worked with a few different platforms, we’re building a really rich understanding of what’s going on, and we’re about to scale. Our teams are going to get bigger. We think this is the way to go. We’d recommend it to any games company. If you can swing it, we think it’s definitely worth the investment.
Jon: Obviously, you’re targeting a very specific kind of platform, which I guess is a very dynamic kind of platform and is a different sort of gaming experience. I think one discussion point will be, well, you’ve got this particular team because you’re doing this in a very ultra-competitive way in terms of players, time, and attention kind of environment. Maybe as a devil’s advocate, you say the mobile game space possibly doesn’t need that level of insight yet because while things are moving fast in mobile games, they don’t move as fast as they do on something on Snapchat. Would you argue against that?
Jen: No. Not everybody needs to take the same approach. I don’t think that one size fits all. There are many options for doing things in different ways that could get just as good results for what you’re trying to do. Like if you’re looking to test appeal, all you’ve got to do is get your ideas in front of your target audience. However you can, you don’t need dedicated people to do that. It does help.
If you’ve got a way to get those ideas in front of players and listen to them and then communicate and act on that, that’s all you need in the beginning. If you’re active on social media, you can recruit folks from there to survey or get into builds. That’s relatively easy to do with just one person. I can talk a bit about what we do on Snapchat in a minute, but as you say, that’s specific. There are also companies out there who can help you get insights from your target audience, so you could work with a partner to help you do that. Now, if you’ve got the budget to do that, that’s the thing that you could consider.
There are also obvious tools like PickFu, GameRefinery’s partners like you to regularly work, do research, and run polls. That’s easy to do to get detailed preference data packaged up for you. There are also platforms if you want to optimize for UX. There are those platforms that can help you with that. I guess what I’m saying is there’s a whole bunch of different approaches.
Like I can just go on Snapchat and get feedback on all kinds of stuff by talking directly to Snapchat. That’s what we do. We’ve got a creator channel there. A big part of my day is just kind of chatting about the game and talking to players like, “Hey, Want to see something new and tell us what you think?” I have a load of one-to-one chats with them. I manually record things, which is super time-consuming. There’s only one of me at the moment dedicated to doing this. It’s not been worth making that effort so far for us.
There can be like; however much bandwidth does you think you can spend on whatever channel is best for you, I think that makes a lot of sense. We’ve even taken our game into the streets of Guilford. You could do that, just ask people passing by, “Do you want to play a game?” We found it works surprisingly well. Testers gravitate towards you if you say thank you with delicious chocolate. Just have a lot of it on our hands.
Honestly, it’s easy to get stuck and not do it if you think you don’t know how to find your people or think you don’t have enough resources. If you get a bit creative, you can surprise yourself with how much success you can get.
Jon: There’s something when mobile came in, and games became much more accessible. It’s always one of the things that developers are not always the most sociable of people. For them to take their kind of prized projects out to talk to ordinary people, that was often quite difficult for them. Yes, as you say that the people who do it, they often use, I guess, find some very easy, that there’s some basic thing that basically that people don’t get their head around that can be potentially quite easily solved.
John, for PickFu, where are you kind of going with the platform. As we’re starting to see, there are many different ways player insights can be gathered. Are you kind of happy with PickFu as it is? Do you think it’s fulfilling the need? Normally most entrepreneurs have a vision for where they’re getting the platforms going. Is there anything you can tell us about where you hope to go?
John: Yes, sure. We think it’s a handy tool and service as-is for mobile developers. Yes, there’s a lot more room to grow, and so I guess right now, PickFu is; our panel is 100% based in the US, so it’s great if you’re targeting US gamers or US consumers. We have plans to expand that, to go international within the next year or so. That should open up a lot of sort of consumer-like geographic region targeting across the world. We’re excited about that.
We have plans to improve, grow the number of tools and different ways of testing and polling that we’re able to provide for users and grow the depth of targeting that we’re able to offer. That’s something that just grows over time as we build up more insights about our panel and learn more about their preferences, the types of games they like, the platforms they play on, and so on.
Jon: Erno, what are your current views on how the discussion is going? Do you see more interest from your clients in using your tools? Your tools are slightly different in terms of their not direct insights from- direct from players. How do you see that change?
Erno: Yes. As you said, we’re a little bit different from the big four or what you guys are doing at Mojiworks, of course, naturally. It’s something that’s never going to go away, and that’s always the thing that you have to do. You have to try out things. You have to go to your players. You have to test out things. That’s never going away, but that’s how we always positioned ourselves. We’re there to try you to help make the choices to go for or make the choices to try out for in-game design matters.
You do your market research. You do like competitive research and search what the market has, what kind of games there are, and what motivational drivers there are for those games. Then you think about, that could be an ocean for us, a blue ocean for us. That could go there and then let’s make a game in that sense. Then, of course, you build like an early prototype, or you start testing different things with the tools like PickFu, for example. It’s something that’s never going to go away, in my opinion.
Jon: I’m getting the idea that it really– I think you said it, Jen, no size fits all. I guess different game developers have different approaches to how they do development. They have different strengths and weaknesses. Some may be more art-led, some may be more hardcore design-led, some may be a bit more commercially focused in some ways. I guess the conclusion I’m getting is, no matter what structure you’ve got, this is something that you should be doing.
Even starting to do this will probably have a fairly significant impact, at least in terms of the knowledge you wouldn’t otherwise get. If it’s just the only people playing your games or the people making the games, then it’s tough for those people to come up with something different in terms of attitude to the game or want to do this, or I like that. Even if you’re just using something like Discord, I suppose, maybe that would be a starting point?
Jen: Sure, it could be. Yes, wherever your people are, however, you can get to them, whatever you’re comfortable using, that can be made to work. It’s all about just getting the communication and beginning to work with that stuff as well. The how? You can figure out the how; we can all figure out how. It’s going to be different for each of us, but there is a point to doing it as you say. There is value in it, and knowing what your players like and how that evolves can only help you make better decisions and better games.
“Knowing what your players like and how that evolves can only help you make better decisions and better games.”Jen summing up why she uses testing
Jon: Lovely. We could be delving deeper into this subject and maybe come back to it for another podcast, but I think for an introduction into player insights, I certainly learned quite a bit about how we should be going about this. Thanks very much to our experts. Thanks to John at PickFu.
John: Thanks for having me on, Jon. It was great.
Jon: Good. Thanks to Jen at Mojiworks.
Jen: It’s been really fun. Thanks, everybody.
Jon: Erno, thanks for coming on again.
Erno: Thank you. Thank you.
Jon: Thanks to you listeners for listening for another episode. Don’t forget to subscribe. We are on the usual podcast channels so that you can find us very quickly. In every episode, we are delving into different aspects of the mobile game sector. There’s so much going on. You can see so many other techniques and many different areas of expertise that now come together to make great mobile games. I hope you find this kind of stuff educational. If you do, that’d be great if you can give us a review. That just helps other people who are interested in making mobile games find the podcast. Thanks for listening to this episode, and come back next time.